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Author Topic: Where's the xrays  (Read 23253 times)

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2015, 10:27:14 AM »
Reminded me of a Joke..goes something like this:

Jacob is a very religious man. One day, a nearby river floods its banks and rushes into town, forcing Jacob to climb onto his garage roof. Soon, a man in a boat comes along and tells Jacob to get in.

Jacob says, "That’s very kind of you, but no thanks. God will take care of me."
So, the boat leaves.

The water rises and Jacob has to climb onto the roof of his house. Another man in a boat comes along and tells Jacob to get in.
Jacob replies, "That’s very kind of you but no thanks. God will take care of me."
The boat leaves.

The water rises further and soon Jacob is clinging to his chimney. Then a helicopter arrives and lowers a ladder. The helicopter pilot tells Jacob to climb up the ladder.
Jacob replies, "That’s very kind of you but no thanks. God will take care of me."
The pilot says, "Are you really sure?"
Jacob says, "Yes, I'm sure that God will take care of me."

Finally, the water rises too high and Jacob drowns. He goes up to Heaven and is met by God.
Jacob says to God, "You told me you would take care of me. What happened?"

God replies, "Well, I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What else did you want me to do?"


Offline Robert E.

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2015, 01:06:19 AM »
Hi Werner,

Lets assume I  show you and others a video of myself levitating 100 meters in the sky  and another lifting a truck of 12 tons with the powers of my mind alone. 
 
A kindergarden kid would believe me admiring my extraordinary powers - but from a grown up person with a normally developed sommon sense we would expect critical questions and the demand of foolproof evidence that I  am really able to perform this feats.

A film posted in the internet, certainly,  is not a proof for anything. Nothing easier to manipulate a film in postproduction even with freeware tools.

Any radiologist will tell you that the person with the ultrasound device can easily achieve the effect shown in the video just by slightly changing the position of the probe.  What is the name of the hospital ?  The doctors ?
Further documentation ? 

It is irresponsable and more than questionable of someone like Braden who claims to be scientist  to hand over information like this without delivering any real evidence.

Naivety on kindergarden level is reponsible for quackery of all kind spreading around the globe,
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 04:35:43 AM by Robert E. »

Offline Robert E.

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2015, 04:26:15 AM »
Short addendum  :

It is self-explanatory that anyone dealing with healtcare and medicine should act in a highly responsible
way and commit to the highest standards on all levels.   

I know what devastating and irrevocable damage can be created by irresponsable  quacks to those who naively trust in information given to them without undertaking thorough research if the therapies offered them are backed by evidence, as a close relatives live has been totally destroyed by quackery - in this case carried out by the established traditional medicine.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 04:35:14 AM by Robert E. »

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2015, 05:55:20 PM »
Robert:

You are right... you cant' believe everything that you see and everything you hear.... that is a truth!  However it is also true that there will always be a contingent of people who will never really believe anything other than what their physical senses tell them about reality.  Mind is an intriguing and sticky subject of course, because it takes people into the realms of the subjective rather than objective worlds of the material universe.  Who can prove a thought after all?

So this whole discussion of course is spurred by your wanting physical proof that Dr. Joe did indeed suffer from a debilitating trauma to his spine in the form of X-rays.  I don't know about you, but I have had quite a few X-rays done in my life and I just haven't bothered to keep any of them.  Furthermore, I couldn't even tell you the names of the doctors and would only have a dim recollection of where some of these X-rays might have been taken.  I had a bone-fracture when I was fifteen from falling off a motorcycle but I just did not have the smarts then to put it in my X-ray photo album.

I don't think that Dr. Joe was thinking of starting a movement when he had this accident, so many years ago.  He just wanted to get well.  It was only after a lot of life experience that he subsequently embarked in the direction that he has, so I am sure that like me, at the time, he really had no reason to collect irrefutable evidence in the form of X-rays and reports.... but of course I haven't asked him either.   Haven't needed to... the other evidence of people being healed and experiencing wonderful things in their lives as a result of the application of the mind, was enough for me to realize that there was something to this.

Even if Dr. Joe were to have saved all of his reports and we could post copies for all to see on the web... would you believe then?  I mean if videos and photos can be faked, then why would you believe the legitimacy of a document that could have come from anyone or anywhere.  It is just human nature that we as a species will continually "argue for our own limitations" and choose not to look at what could be a much bigger picture. It is an excuse really, not to change.. it often is easier to stay in one's comfortable and familiar box than to venture into an unknown.

So you can either take this information and use it to free yourself from your own self-imposed prison or throw it away.. its really up to you!

Cheers




« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 06:13:10 PM by admin »

Offline Robert E.

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2015, 11:23:04 PM »
.
"Admin, do you know of any similar extraordinary ("miraculous") and well documented healing process like the spine among Dispenzas clientele ?
Silence... because it is really not my place to try to convince you of anything"

I just had wanted to know if Dr Dispenza  has given clear evidence of extraordinary cases of healings definitely caused by the mental methods developed by him

And to be pointed to such a case / cases documented according to scientific standards as Mr Dispenza clearly does not refer to himself as newage cult leader expecting his followers to just believe his words but as a scientist whose work is based on science.

.

" . . .  it is really not my place to try to convince you of anything"

Of course I did not expect to be convinced by you but by the evidence itself provided by the respective data and documents which should be provided by anyone who claims to be a scientist and a person comitted to the truth.

So If Mr Dispenza does not provide clear evidence according to scientific standards  and does not even base his work on a scientific methodology, why does he claim to do so ?   It unavoidably leads to the assumption that the petition of more than hundred people against his alleged misuse of science is justified.

It would be appropiate and honest if he would stop misusing the term "science" and "scientific" for marketing reasons and avoid confusion as there are people out there who erroneously think that there is some substantial and credible fact based background to his work regarding the placebo effect making it stand out from the mass of newage cults based on the uncritical belief of its followers.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 12:31:14 AM by Robert E. »

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2015, 02:08:22 PM »
Hi Robert:

If you pick up one of Dr. Joe's books again and then read through it, you will find that these books are actually based upon other legitimate scientists observations and results.  Dr. Joe, as a researcher, has carefully compiled a collection of often disassociated knowledge from a variety of sources in order to put together a cohesive picture of the effect of mind on the material world.

He is not a scientist in that he does not hold a PHD or any tenure at a University or other scientific research institute, and has no laboratory in which to conduct experiments.   He has been often referred to BY OTHERS, as a Neuroscientist, but has never claimed to be anything other than a Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine himself.

If you need evidence about the legitimacy of any of the scientific experiments mentioned by Dr. Joe in his books, then you would need to contact the actual scientist themselves.

That having been said, Dr. Joe is now conducting his own research and often invites participants at his Advanced Workshops to take part in the testing.  There are a variety of different measurements that are being taken, from EEG brain scans, to Heart Coherence Monitoring, to Gas Discharge Variance measurements, to room Energy Measurements to blood, urine or saliva tests.  Dr. Joe is spearheading this research, but has trained scientists, competent in their various areas of expertise interpreting the results.

I don't believe that there is any real issue with Dr. Joe claiming that something is "scientific" when in actual fact, most of what he is endeavoring to teach has come directly from the scientific community. 

Cheers!

« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:11:42 PM by admin »

Offline WTF1962

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2015, 06:44:48 AM »
Admin, Mr Dispenza does refer to himself as a Neurosceintist:  Here: http://kripalu.org/article/1281/?utm_source=kol&utm_medium=email&utm_content=tp_dispenza&utm_campaign=jan12kol, and here: https://www.linkedin.com/company/encephalon-llc-dr-joe-dispenza.  He also seems to have embellished his qualifiacations, for instance Evegreen College do not teach Neuroscience according to their registrar so Mr dispenza's BS degree is simply in Liberal Arts.  He also seems quite proud of the year he spent at Rutgers failing a Biology Degree at Cook College.

Having no qualifications wouldn't be an issue if only Mr Dispenza's arguments were subject to logical based on evidence and facts and where speculation was clearly stated as being just that, but all we get from Mr Dispenza is an appeal to his own authority, this is dogma not science.   Even if we had his x-rays before and after his accident this still wouldn't be enough to demonstrate that the healing was a result of anything other than the natural healing process and nothing to do with mind over matter.

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 09:16:33 AM »
WTF!... an interesting choice of username?

You will note, that Dr. Joe's official Linked-in page can be reached by clicking on the social media links at the top of the http://www.drjoedispenza.com website. 

Here it is: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjoedispenza

Thank you however for digging up the other Linked-in page.  We are now in the process of finding out exactly why that rogue page exists, who administers it and get it either deleted or changed to reflect the correct information.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Dr. Joe does not refer to himself as a Neuroscientist but is often quoted BY OTHERS as being such.  We have long ago given up trying to control the information from dubious sources that are passed around as being fact across the internet.  That would require someone full-time to monitor and as the internet is global and different laws are applicable in different parts of the world, almost impossible to now enforce.

People will always have their own opinions about all manner of subjects, including how healing actually occurs in the body and you of course are welcome to yours. 

I don't think there is any dispute that the body has its own natural healing mechanism.  However, there are some conditions in which the body does not appear to be able to make the necessary adjustments on its own.... or rather.. has not been given the conscious instructions to do so.   If your doctor tells you that a disease is incurable, and you believe that prognosis, then how much of your belief actually plays a role in what the natural healing of the body can actually perform?  If you get a cut on your finger, you know that the cut will heal without your intervention.  If your spine is severed or you are told that you have been born with an incurable genetic condition, then maybe your resignation to that future is what causes the future to be that way.

Cheers



Offline WTF1962

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 02:48:20 PM »
Thanks for the reply Admin,

Are you saying that the Kiraplu interview. Interestingly you seem imply that being told by a doctor that one has a terminal condition can induce that condition how could this idea ever be proven?  Your final comment is disturbing as you seem to be suggesting that a person with a severed spine or an incurable genetic  disease only has themselves to blame because they thought the wrong thoughts.  This is utter nonsense no amount of thought power could repair a severed spine, unless, that is, you can cite a controlled case.

Also if I may digress. What Mr Dispenza seems to be telling us is something along the lines of this quote translated from its original French. 

"
  • n the one hand I have a clear and distinct idea of myself, in so far as I am simply a thinking, non-extended thing [that is, a mind], and on the other hand I have a distinct idea of body, in so far as this is simply an extended, non-thinking thing. And accordingly, it is certain that I am really distinct from my body, and can exist without it."


Would you agree?  Its a few years old, maybe its what inspired Mr Dispenza.

Thanks

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 04:12:18 PM »
WTF1962, may I ask you... have you ever read any of Dr. Joe's books before?  I am curious, what on earth led you to this forum and what possibly is your interest here? 

If it is solely to disprove or bring into question Dr. Joe's work, then there really is a big gap here between the questions you are posing and what can possibly be addressed on this forum.   I know that it is almost fruitless for me to start down this road of questioning, because one line of thought begets another in an endless debate that never really leads anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

I am generally very happy to engage people who are sincere, with legitimate queries, because I realize that despite their own doubts, there is often a small spark of recognition within them that makes them want to explore some of these ideas further.... I don't get that sense from you.

So what exactly is your story?

« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 06:10:50 PM by admin »

Offline WTF1962

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2015, 06:51:46 AM »
Well admin my story is one of doubt.  And, after all, isn't doubt the basis of all science and Philosophy and  Dispenza's books all claim to be based on science.

Since you ask, my background is mathematics and computational affective neuroscience.  Whilst searching the internet for works by Anotnio Damazio and Jaak Panksepp I came across a guy who claimed to be an expert on the brain.  I read some of the work and spotted a  number of errors with basic anatomy and misunderstandings of common contemporary theories, for instance Triune Brain theory and Neuroplasticity,  mixed with a bizarre concept of Quantum Mechanics and reaching conclusions that do not follow from his premises  even if his premises were true.

Yours was an interesting link to the Monty Python sketch and goes with your question when you ask am I trying to disprove Dispenza. This can not be done, his argument is mere assertion and can be refuted simply by denying it -the burden of proof lies with the dogmatist.

My problem is that we have a  lot of promises with respect people's health which, it is claimed, backed by science, when we delve a little we see the cititons and case studies do not support Dispenza's with results often being distorted for example in Placebo he even cites a spoof BMJ article on Retroactive Intercessory Prayer , Libovici et al.
This is intellectually dishonest with, in my opinion, the aim of fleecing desperate and deluded people.

Of course I don't expect anybody will agree on this site as most seem to be suffering from motivated reasoning.  Maybe that's the issue that they should be meditating on.

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2015, 09:12:19 AM »
Well it is certainly nice to have a contrary voice here and one from someone who obviously is trained and practiced in the fields that you are. 

From your perspective and understanding there may indeed be discrepancies or errors in interpretation in the results of various case studies and/or misunderstandings of common contemporary theories.  I am not familiar enough with the various material that you refer to, to really comment.

Something that I have observed is that there appears to be very little cross disciplinary dialogue that is exercised among the scientific community these days and scientists often, out of necessity, tend to focus on just their particular area of expertise, rarely delving into other areas that may indeed hold some clues to their research. This is a generalization I realize, but in many of the stories that I have read of scientists that have really supercharged our understanding of the nature of reality and ultimately made a difference in the world, they all appeared to come across a wall of resistance from those who held strong to the current understandings of the day.

Yes, trying to reconcile how Quantum Theory might tie into brain function might indeed be a bit of a stretch for you! 

If you want to see how closely science will hold onto its past, then listen to stories of scientists who have been asked to shred their results because it might adversely affect the profits of "Big Pharma" read Plague: One Scientist’s Intrepid Search for the Truth about Human Retroviruses and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS), Autism, and Other Diseases

http://www.amazon.com/Plague-Scientist%C2%92s-Intrepid-Retroviruses-Syndrome/dp/1626365652

If you want to talk about health, then you need to look at the Ivory Fortress that we term science and realize that the walls have already been breached. True scientific research without influence by special interests may happen in some places, but often results are tailored to suit the wishes of those who provide the funding.

In relation to the above mentioned book, how many children will end up with Autism, a disease that was almost unheard of at one time, before the true science gets revealed?  On the other hand there are an abundance of cases from people who have listened to Dr. Joe, have applied what they learned and that have been healed of some pretty serious conditions.

http://drjoedispenza.com/index.php?page_id=testimonial_heal_self

Yes they may have drunk the "cool aid" and are suffering from an absence of reasoning, but it seems to be working!

Cheers.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 01:06:19 PM by admin »

Offline debiwebi

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2018, 06:01:43 PM »
I realize this is an old topic, but I came across it today when I was searching for some information about Joe's back injury that I could send to someone. This person recently found out that she had 'broken her back' long ago. She was in a car accident, insisted she was fine and did not see a doctor. Decades later she had an x-ray of her spine (turned out she also had a minor birth defect she was not aware of) and found out a vertebrae had been broken and then healed. I've been thinking about this thread all day. I really enjoyed it but it reminded me of people who come to MY forum (Seth/Jane Roberts) bent on disproving everything and insisting on solid proof of things, accepting nothing less than what can be produced by PhDs or Biblical scholars.

I've been a fan of Dr. Joe for a long time. I have no idea how I even came across his books. The first time I attended a workshop of his was at Shambhala Mountain Resort in Red Feather Lakes, CO. It was a 3 day weekend and I basically sat, entranced, at his feet the whole time. It was a very small workshop in their Yoga room. He sat, I think, on a folding chair and the rest of us had yoga mats on the floor. Later I attended a gathering in the Denver Tech Center, Englewood, CO. He was with Bruce Lipton.

After that I've attended the full workshop series--until he priced himself out of my league--maybe 2 of years ago?

I too wanted to see before and after x-rays of his spine, only because I'm detail-oriented and curious. I have not doubted the idea that Dr. Joe healed a spinal injury. There is no reason to doubt -- the body was designed to self-maintain. We ingest the basic building blocks: protein, vitamins, minerals, etc. and the body uses that to maintain and heal. Anyone who has ever had an injury, whether a paper cut, sliced finger, or broken bone, knows the body repaires itself. A doctor does not heal a broken bone. He may mobilize or re-align a break, but it's the body that does the healing. There's no other way.

I don't know why I wanted to add my two cents, other than I really appreciate Dr. Joe and I can relate to having new forum members try to tear things down. @Admin, you're very good at what you do!

BTW I am also using SMF for my forum. I really like the template you have. I have reverted back to the basic one because when I had a different template I had problems getting the Mods to work. I have some custom ones now, so I may be committed to the basic layout forever.

PS
I'm attaching an image of a graphic I made, for fun, after my last workshop. The idea came to me after the several-hour-long meditation in the wee hours. I had made myself a cup of coffee when I woke up. And my bladder regretted it towards the end of the meditation. I'm also a graphic designer, so my mind works in mysterious ways. I also have a twisted sense of humor.

Oh, and I like your captcha. It was actually fun.

Update: Not so much liking the captcha. After about 8 captcha rejects (no, I didn't make mistakes), I got an error message that your uploads folder was full so I had to nix the attachment. I was only trying to add a 131K file.

Also just went through the captcha repeating to make a minor edit to my post. If people aren't posting much on your forum, this would be the reason.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:17:34 AM by debiwebi »

Jay_Dee

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2018, 11:00:32 AM »
It appears that the Admin is actually two different people on this forum. One being Dr. Joe.

Offline admin

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Re: Where's the xrays
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 07:27:31 AM »
No just one. Not Dr. Joe!